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PADA Forum  |  leagues & pickup  |  General  |  Topic: Events Committee Update 2 « previous next »
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Author Topic: Events Committee Update 2  (Read 102107 times)
pbwinkler1
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« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2012, 10:26:46 am »

Posted by: knappy
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I think it is reasonable to say: this is a draft league, if you could not reasonably draft your baggage, you don't get to baggage them. Choose another option.

If this is how the powers that be at PADA feel, I hope they realize that the "other option" may be for many to just not play anymore.  If weeding out players that prioritize playing with friends/family over having totally equally skilled teams is the goal of this events committee - you are succeeding.
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Bulb
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« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2012, 10:45:26 am »

I think at the heart of this is how we define the term novice.

The new rules claim that you are no longer a novice after playing just two league seasons.

I don't agree. I was hoping that the events folk meant 2 years. That sounds more realistic to me.

That would mean you get two summers of mentoring and by year three you have make the choice of over drafting the player or not. I can live with that. Again, if you really think a new player will not quit in year two if they get drafted by a bunch of jerks, you are fooling yourself.
I must have recently developed some sort of reading disorder (possibly related to the fact that I read more in the last three weeks than in the 5 years prior - damn you Suzanne Collins!) because I didn't realize until now that there is still confusion on what defines a novice.

I'm struggling on a "simple" definition but I think that the following two examples may clear up confusion:

1) Joe Rookie played his first season in FPSL 2010.  He has played a few leagues since then, but no club or college.  He is still considered a novice for FPSL 2012, since he has not played for more than two years.

2) Jenny Newbie played her first season in FPSL 2008, played FPSL 2009, but hasn't touched a disc since.  She is still considered a novice for FPSL 2012, since she has not played more than two leagues.

So, in response to what Clayton said, a captain can baggage a recruit up to and including their third FPSL season.  (Though exceptions will be made for players who are known to be difference makers.)

I lean towards allowing captains' baggage for s/o's & children even if it does warrant an additional round penalty, although we should err on the significant penalty side. (i.e., a top level club player might cost 1st, 3rd & 4th round picks.) That being said, the consensus opinion did not see it that way & I'm not upset about the outcome.
Knappy, I think most people (including myself) did see it that way, but with an important caveat.  A captain can baggage their (opposite sex) significant other IF their co-captain could reasonable draft them.  (A captain can baggage their same sex significant other, though it might cost an additional round penalty.)

I think it is reasonable to say: this is a draft league, if you could not reasonably draft your baggage, you don't get to baggage them. Choose another option.
The fact that FPSL is a draft league (and the ONLY co-ed draft league, mind you) is a sentiment that is often overlooked.  PADA offers non-draft leagues during every season of the year, including summer.  UHLe has been received (thanks to you, Knappy!) as a fantastic alternative to the competitive play in FPSL.

many captain pairs pick rounds 1-10 as if it was the NFL draft.
National Fun League?

Seriously, though, I love the "team contributions" field in the draft data because it helps captains pick the "right" players, instead of just the "best" players.
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knappy
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« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2012, 11:08:34 am »

Pam, I think that's a very unfair & overly dramatic response to what I wrote. No one is weeding out players that "prioritize playing with family & friends". The folks who run the league & who are on the committee volunteer dozens of hours to PADA (some, like Jesse & Kuhfuss, hundreds of hours).  Our volunteers do a ton to breed ultimate & provide playing opportunities that "prioritize playing with family & friends" (spring, fall, winter, pickup, club, hat tournaments, etc.)

Paraphrasing what Dan Heckman famously said, I just want to play ultimate with my friends. It's just that my friends are way better at ultimate than your friends.

When your friends are really, really good at ultimate (& laarz is one of the most talented players on the East coast, IMO), that option is not available to you under the current policy in FPSL only. By the way....it's available to you in UHLe league, & we'd love to have all 4 of you play together there & teach the game to lots of new players!

ALL the other options for FPSL are still available, including you & JT captaining together; you & Laarz captaining w/his wife as baggage & try to draft JT; &  going into the draft as a couple & meeting new people & playing for the captains who draft you.



« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 11:18:49 am by knappy » Logged

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jptewx1
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« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2012, 11:36:31 am »

...and this is why the conversations on the forum get so one sided. Someone expresses an opinion and instead of taking it as constructive comment from someone with a different point of view it is picked apart in big bold letters. Then the people that relish the fight stay and duke it out and the rest do what I am about to do which is go back to never looking at the forum and PADA gets more myopic.

We made our points. If they help great, if not sorry to waste the time.
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knappy
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« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2012, 11:49:24 am »

"By the way....it's available to you in UHLe league, & we'd love to have all 4 of you play together there & teach the game to lots of new players!"

that was meant to be a positive & sincere invitation, which is why I put it in bold.
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school15
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« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2012, 01:05:12 pm »

I'd like to note a few things (as a member of the Events Committe).

There is an awful lot of time and consideration put into the decisions made, this includes the opinons and perspectives of a diverse group of people, though all very thoughtful.

Something that came up in multiple discussions is that rules/policies and enforcement of those is necessary, not only for clarity and fairness, but to counter those who would intentionally stack a team or game the system to win. I understand the points made, and the feedback is useful. However, while altering our baggage policies would benefit certain people who are genuinely interested in breeding Ultimate and not winning, there are ways in which that would bring great unbalance to the league - particularly because there are people that play to win. The best we can do in the face of these truths is moderate. And I believe it is the responsibility of the Committee and Coordinators to assure that team balance, and thereby league competitiveness is equal and fair. While these baggage rules may drive some people away, we do agree they should create more balance, and more equal competition, and THAT will cause a higher retention of newer players. The more equal teams are, the more games go to 15-14 final scores, the more fun the league will be.

Unfortunately, policies and rules that are all inclusive, and satisfy 100% of people 100% of the time are elusive. We are honestly and diligently working to formulate ways to keep FPSL and all of PADA, a fun, healthy and competitive environment, all in line with the SOTG.
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Laarz
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« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2012, 01:51:53 pm »

So, and awful lot has been said on this topic already, but I would wager that all this talk about equality and fairness will have no change on final league standings. Having a season of 15-14 final scores is not my idea of a fun season. Attention has already been paid to power captains taking over the world, and with that the idea our sole purpose for playing is to win. I'd just like to echo the thought that a captains' philosophy has more of an impact on team fun than does winning. I'm expecting to see the same captain pairs this year in A/B pool playoffs, and I'm OK with that. I've understood the basic principle of equality and fairness in PADA to include equal playing time for everyone on the team. Can you expect a novice player to enter the draft, hoping learn and improve their skills, only to be picked up by one of the captains whose 'winning and fun' philosophy doesn't include that player? Is it equal and fair if said novice is benched because they aren't a game changer?

I'm trying to captain with Pam, with Jon Tew as her baggage and my wife (Amanda) as my baggage. We did this last year after a similar discussion about how awesome we would be together. We drafted our fun friends and we finished d pool. It seems like we were overrated (i can hear the chants now!), and I think our collective philosophy more supports enjoying a sport with friends than doing whatever it takes to win. If we win, fantastic, and if not, so be it.

It's looking like this is all for naught, however, and Pam/Jon will captain while Amanda and I will get thrown into the draft to hope for the best. I hope not.

Cheers,

Laarz
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padagentile
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« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2012, 02:32:37 pm »

Man, I usually avoid these philosophical debates, where, I feel, there is no 'right' answer.  But, in this case I feel I can offer a perspective/experience directly related to this particular situation.

I played on Pam/Laarz' team last year.  They have not misrepresented their style/philosophy at all.  I was quite likely the most overtly competitive person on the team (competitive attitude, not ability ;{).  Those of you that know me, take that as you wish.  Everyone played, everyone played pretty evenly, even in the tougher situations (end of close games, playoffs, etc).  The only time the 'starters' played more was when subs were few. 

I agree, on paper, that baggage group looks strong.  And in practice, it is true, (see games where subs were few and Laarz/Pam/Tew played more than usual, and Tew was without back pain)  But those instances were not in their control and that happens to other teams as well, when the bottom half of the roster is absent.  Also, look at the history of their draft choices.  Not disparaging those folks, they’re solid players, but probably not the ‘best’ player that was available to be drafted at that time.

I do understand the committee/coordinators goals of establishing rules to prevent folks from taking advantage of the system, but if that system harms (that may strong, but I’m not digging up a thesaurus) the honest folks, we may have overshot the goal. 

Unfortunately, no one I know can see into the soul of another and determine if there are sinister designs harbored therein.  Nor do I want to put the coordinators in the position of saying that Captain Sith can’t baggage because they are a dick, while allowing Captain Jedi’s baggage because, well, they are not.  Disclaimer: I am neither confirming nor denying whether Pam and/or Laarz have a highcount of midi-chlorians or whether they would use them for the good of all or for selfish reasons.

I’m sure I’ve said it before, but fair does not mean equal.  If, after looking at all the captains pairs and their baggage and their draft positions and their penalties, each captain has a ’fair’ chance of winning more games than they lose, the committee/coordinators have done their job very well.

Mike G
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 03:28:09 pm by padagentile » Logged
Clayton1
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« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2012, 01:45:34 am »

Pam, Jon and Laarz:

please don't give up. I know you are upset. I have been there (a lot).

Instead of quitting the league ... use this as an opportunity to keep breeding ultimate and "Doing what you do".

Laarz ... there are potential female co-captains that agree with you. Have Two teams of friends and lucky teammates that get to learn from you guys. And who knows ... next year may be different.

Speaking of friends that have similar FPSL captaining philosophies, Captains should be able to request getting a schedule that includes other captains you want to play against. I am sure with a preset schedule before the draft this is doable. You may not get all your requests but Laarz and Pam/Jon can at least know that they can play vs each other (#1 request) and maybe even be at the edge the same night alot this summer.

To everyone who has ever given hours (current and former) to PADA ... we love you. But please listen to members who may not have been on a board or committee but have also given countless hrs to our community. Cause we all pay our league fees and all our opinions matter.

The events folks have spoken and now it is up to the draft/baggage folks to make some tough choices. Can I recommend the Philly Spinners as this years draft advisors?

I am happy that a novice is two YEARS by the way. And hope that if a player who has played over 2 years but still is far away from being a requested player, that they are also allowed to baggage with friends.

cheers,
Clayton



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vincentmccrink
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« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2012, 06:04:16 am »

Will this preset schedule be as infallible as last summer's Rocky league schedule?

V
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jfbrose1
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« Reply #55 on: April 13, 2012, 08:37:08 am »


As Christina's post points out, captain's baggage has been an issue that has dogged SL for a long time (at least the past dozen years I've been captaining).  I'm not on the events committee, but the basic premise is that 2 top guys and one top woman can carry a team to a SL title (especially if they don't come off the field much), regardless of who else they add to their team.  The results over the years have supported this premise.  In the past, we have tried to balance the interest of having top players who want to captain and play with each other by penalizing them extra picks.  This has worked to a certain degree, but it has also failed in several respects.  First, it puts pressure on the coordinators to accurately evaluate the talent in the captain's baggage string, which is particularly difficult with new players in the league (last year for ex, one of the teams lost just a 6th rounder for a player who should have been a 1st or 2nd round men's pick).  One slip like that can completely tilt the playing field.  I've also seen captains with baggage get too penalized (the Bonfanti/Minecci chain a few years back comes to mind) to the point where their team has no real shot at the black disc after the draft and that can't be much fun for them or the people who end up on their team.  Given we've tried this approach with mixed success for the past several years, it seems the EC has decided to swing the pendulum the other way to see how that works, and that seems worth a try.

I get that some captain pairs aren't all about winning the black disc, and there is obviously way more to SL than winning, but in a league of 48 teams fairness in the construction of the teams is an essential component to the overall success of the league.  The rules have to be uniform.  How can the coordinators know for example that one captain's pair that wants to bag with a talented couple is really just playing for fun versus another that's playing to win?  I'm not sure this year's approach is better than penalizing picks, but it seems worth a try, particularly since it is the product of a fair amount of volunteer effort.  Also, I think the point of the initial post was to get feedback from the community before the implementation of the new plan, so this is a valuable discussion (especially considering how little general discourse there is).

By the way, I do see a distinction between captain's baggage and non-captain's baggage.  I still think any two non-captains should get bag together for any reason as long as they can be fairly drafted.  In other words, two top guys who would go in first round should not be able to bag together, but other than that everyone should be able to. 


 
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« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2012, 12:30:49 pm »

Another VERY important clarification: it was suggested a week or two ago that we add parent/child relationships to the list of acceptable baggage reasons.  The coordinators agreed internally to do this, but it seems to have slipped through the cracks, as the registration page was never updated, nor was it announced here on the forum.

So, for the record, parents and children may list each other as baggages.  The registration page will get updated, and this information will be included in a blast to all registered players that will be going out ASAP.

I do see a distinction between captain's baggage and non-captain's baggage.  I still think any two non-captains should get bag together for any reason as long as they can be fairly drafted.  In other words, two top guys who would go in first round should not be able to bag together, but other than that everyone should be able to.
I see a lot of merit to this idea, but the big downside to me is that it discourages the people who want to play with a specific friend from captaining.  In theory, they could always draft their friend, but I imagine most people would "play it safe" and just baggage and go into the draft.  Personally, I'd be ok with this if we counter-balanced it with some other incentive to captain... but other than discounted registration (which would require small increases to everyone else's fees), I don't have any good ideas.
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knappy
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« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2012, 04:42:05 pm »

+1 on Clayton's ideas & post, especially in regards to asking for volunteers from Spinners (who can't play FPSL) to help out on draft/baggage committee.

I'm glad we had this discussion, but certainly did not mean to come off as close minded. I love conversations on the forum like this. I think PADA gains new insights & always learns from situations like this. Every policy has pros & cons. It sucks that super nice, spirited folks, who in no way are trying to game the system, sometimes get caught up in a crappy situation due to policy changes.

Disclaimer: I should also add that I am not a PADA power-that-be in any way. Just a league coordinator & very occasional contributor to events committee discussion. My posts are solely my opinion, and not meant to reflect anyone's views but my own.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 04:45:02 pm by knappy » Logged

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« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2012, 12:13:25 pm »

Thank you to everyone for your comments and feedback.  The link to the rules draft has been taken down and the Events Committee is making the final revisions on the PADA Rulebook which will be issued shortly (in advance of the FPSL draft).  It has been a sizable effort from many devoted volunteers representing many different views from within the PADA ultimate community.  The intention is to have a clear, consolidated and publicly available rulebook that will aid players, captains and league coordinators in all PADA leagues. 

I would like to make one point regarding the Events Committee activities.  I believe that some may have the misconception that the Events Committee has been primarily focused on the competitive nature of FPSL.  This is very far from the truth.  The committee discussions have primarily focused on providing a fair playing field and opportunities to compete for all players throughout the PADA league structure.  It is the shared belief of the committee that providing a fair league system is the best way to showcase the sport of ultimate and prove an enjoyable experience for novice and experienced players alike.

The committee does realize that it is a continuing effort and appreciates any additional feedback.  Thanks!

-Soyka
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« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2012, 08:54:39 am »

I do see a distinction between captain's baggage and non-captain's baggage.  I still think any two non-captains should get bag together for any reason as long as they can be fairly drafted.  In other words, two top guys who would go in first round should not be able to bag together, but other than that everyone should be able to.
I see a lot of merit to this idea, but the big downside to me is that it discourages the people who want to play with a specific friend from captaining.  In theory, they could always draft their friend, but I imagine most people would "play it safe" and just baggage and go into the draft.  Personally, I'd be ok with this if we counter-balanced it with some other incentive to captain... but other than discounted registration (which would require small increases to everyone else's fees), I don't have any good ideas.
[/quote]

Bulb, if two players are too highly ranked to baggage together as non-captains, they will be too highly ranked to captain together too, so I don't there is anything about my proposal that affects getting captains.  For example, Tew and Laarz are apparently too good to captain bag together, and they would be too good to bag together in the draft because no one could possibly draft both if they weren't bagged.  On other hand, Soyka and I could bag together because, despite our obvious skills Grin, we would not both go in the first.  The market will set the right draft spot for us.  Yes, it is unfair to the very top players, but they are already being prevented from playing together and this has been the case for a while.  Last year the top pick was a baggaged pair of guys who were good enough to be top pick but not so good that they tilted balance of the league.  You just have to draw the line somewhere.
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