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PADA Forum  |  leagues & pickup  |  General  |  Topic: Competitions Committee Update « previous next »
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hrvandusen
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« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2012, 09:23:54 pm »

Clayton, it is not the tenor of this discussion that worries me.  Everyone has been very nice and occasionally funny so far.  It is more some of the underlying assumptions.

What I meant is that I play summer league to have fun and hang out with cool people and play ultimate.  It is concerning to me that so many people are focused on the black disc.  I know that it's the most competitive league that most will play in etc etc, but I'd rather focus on making sure that everyone has as much fun in E/F as they do in A/B.  My season doesn't end when I get cut out of A/B, and I don't want anyone else's to either.  I don't like the idea that at that point you should just give up and go home and hope for better luck next year, which is a vibe I get from lots of folks - hence the repeated idea about how many 'season-ending' games there could be.  If you're cut out of A/B then you should focus on having a blast in whatever pool you're in - because your season isn't over.  I would rather the coordinators and captains be focused on what makes for the best-spirited season, not the easiest-to-strategize-for season. But that's just me : )
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briancanniff
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« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2012, 11:56:59 am »

Few quick thoughts:

IMO, set schedule tends to help newer players make games.  Not everyone can and will re-arrange their lives around games.

Interesting tweaks - good job Competition Committee.  Let's see how they go this year.

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Bulb
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« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2012, 05:15:29 pm »

It is concerning to me that so many people are focused on the black disc.  I know that it's the most competitive league that most will play in etc etc, but I'd rather focus on making sure that everyone has as much fun in E/F as they do in A/B.  My season doesn't end when I get cut out of A/B, and I don't want anyone else's to either.  I don't like the idea that at that point you should just give up and go home and hope for better luck next year, which is a vibe I get from lots of folks - hence the repeated idea about how many 'season-ending' games there could be.  If you're cut out of A/B then you should focus on having a blast in whatever pool you're in - because your season isn't over.  I would rather the coordinators and captains be focused on what makes for the best-spirited season, not the easiest-to-strategize-for season.
These are some great points, and during the internal discussions on this topic, similar points were brought up on multiple occasions.  Personally, I don't think that the new format, in ANY way shape or form, will lead to an INCREASE in the overall competitiveness of the league, in terms of the frequency of things like hurrying your opponents to start the game, arguing calls for minutes on end, or refusing to stop playing long after the sun has gone down.  But that is just speculation.  Just remember that "Spirit of the Game" doesn't just mean playing by the rules.  It means playing to win WHILE playing by the rules:

"Spirit of the Game. Ultimate relies upon a spirit of sportsmanship that places the responsibility for fair play on the player. Highly competitive play is encouraged, but never at the expense of mutual respect among competitors, adherence to the agreed upon rules, or the basic joy of play. Protection of these vital elements serves to eliminate unsportsmanlike conduct from the Ultimate field. Such actions as taunting opposing players, dangerous aggression, belligerent intimidation, intentional infractions, or other 'win-at-all-costs' behavior are contrary to the Spirit of the Game and must be avoided by all players."
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billym
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« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2012, 06:16:48 pm »

I didn't know so many people were ready to talk about this...

Nevertheless, I can appreciate all the points brought up here and again I'm not opposed to these changes. But I want to be clear that for my team it changes things... I am going to have to "stray from my captaining" philosophy as I stated in the original post.

Think about my team last year. I was confident and my team was confident that going into Pool Play we could win 3 out of 5 game even though we didn't win a game all regular season to be in the discussion for A/B pool.

Under the new format my team would have basically been the last seed or the 48th team going into a one game playoff versus the 17th placed team. I like my chances of win 3 out of 5 rather than a one game playoff against a very good team who probably finished second or third in their division. So at the end of the regular season I'm going to focus more on winning some games to avoid that matchup.

Now let's think about those teams who might finish the regular season in 17th place instead of 16th place... don't you think they are going to do everything in their power to avoid a game again the 48th place team? Especially when there is a good chance you'll be playing against the Maroons?
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Bulb
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« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2012, 07:41:49 pm »

Think about my team last year. I was confident and my team was confident that going into Pool Play we could win 3 out of 5 game even though we didn't win a game all regular season to be in the discussion for A/B pool.

Under the new format my team would have basically been the last seed or the 48th team going into a one game playoff versus the 17th placed team. I like my chances of win 3 out of 5 rather than a one game playoff against a very good team who probably finished second or third in their division. So at the end of the regular season I'm going to focus more on winning some games to avoid that matchup.
I think that's a very reasonable attitude - but I don't think that it's that different from your previous captaining philosophy, assuming you were more focused on winning your 5 playoff pool games last season than you were during the regular season.  Under the new format, you can still play the same number of games with your "regular season" philosophy, and play the last few with a little more focus on winning.  The only difference is in the nomenclature, really.  Personally, I do not care if my team finishes 17th or 48th.  The bye would be nice, but if I don't get it, I don't care what seed I'm up against - ESPECIALLY if I know that there are other captains with a similar philosophy.  (Ok, ok, bring on the Prisoner's Dilemma rebuttals...)

Now let's think about those teams who might finish the regular season in 17th place instead of 16th place... don't you think they are going to do everything in their power to avoid a game again the 48th place team? Especially when there is a good chance you'll be playing against the Maroons?
Absolutely!  But even for those teams, the difference between winning and losing those games is trivial compared to the potential difference between winning and losing your second playoff game under the old format.  There will also be far fewer of those games that determine the top 16 compared to the number of playoff games under the old format.  Even if every division is close and 1/2 the league is on the 4/5 bubble within their division (aka the 16/17 bubble), and even if each of those teams' last three games are played "more competitively," we are still only talking about 72 games, so even if we add the 32 play-in games, we are still looking at a smaller number of "competitive" games compared the old format, where there were 120 playoff games, any one of which could be competitive.

But let's face it - that 72 is probably going to be closer to 15 or 20.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 07:43:28 pm by Bulb » Logged
saltzie1
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« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2012, 08:35:41 pm »

A few points to this discussion*:
Bulb and his puffy chest hair are right about spirit.  It's important to remember that silly hats and jello discs are fun, but they do not create spirit.  I

The new system looks fine, but let's not forget that overly competitive jerks will ruin any system.  PADA runs well because we find good people and put them in leadership roles (like all the captains who have been posting here).  Every situation of terrible spirit I have witnessed has been by weak/novice captains, or captains who cared about winning more than anything.  And, on the other side, the people who continue to play can always cite great players who taught them to play "the right way".

That's it. 



*the heated nature may stem from an incident many years ago, when Vanni and Big Rick got into a screaming match at the open portion of the Phillly Invite.  Things were only settled after Clayton spiked a rule book.  Should Clayton have to spike another rule book, I would like to have video.
**Big Rick tried to dime me out over a tap.  His judgement should be considered suspect.

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Fantusta
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« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2012, 01:55:51 am »

I'm pretty sure it was Alex that spiked the rule book.  But I don't think there was anything heated here.

My comments had nothing to do with how I approach the season as a captain now or in the future (heck, I'd actually prefer not to captain next year, but I've heard that once they get your hooks in you it's harder to get out than Scientology...) I just wanted to approach any claims being made in a logical fashion.
I actually wrote out a long diatribe about win %s and conditional probabilities but decided I'd be better off writing a post more than one Bulb would read.

And as for Heather's points, I think she's absolutely right -- but it's important to understand that this discussion isn't changing anyone's opinions, it's just bringing them a little bit to the surface.  Everyone posting here wants to breed ultimate and I think does a very good job doing so; I'm not as good at teaching OR winning as almost anyone in this discussion.  (Okay,  maybe I'm better at coaching high school JV girls teams than some... but that's because they think I'm a pre-teen girl at heart myself)   So I don't have anything meaningful to say about my philosophies, other than that I don't think they're finely tuned enough to be affected by such a change (I can SAY the regular season doesn't matter a dozen times a season, doesn't mean I stick to it enough) but maybe that's something I need to recognize and work on!

so maybe my math would've actually been more readable than my rambling parenthetical mess.  Ah well.  Vanni out.
And maybe the word asinine was a bit strong.  But to claim that this is a strict upgrade in terms of decreasing competitiveness of games seemed a disingenuous claim, even if made only implicitly.  I don't know if this schedule is better.  My initial leaning is that overall, it is.  But I can't possibly know how more than a few captains really approach things and I certainly know we can't control all of 'em.
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Vanni
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« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2012, 09:02:13 am »

threadjack -- when are summer league finals going to be? No one responded to my other post & I am too lazy to email Bulb
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Bulb
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« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2012, 01:11:54 pm »

Finals are scheduled for August 11-12.
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Clayton1
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« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2012, 05:18:59 pm »

This is why I like the forum.

You get to hear people's opinions. And you may even get some info from coordinators a little sooner than expected like a finals weekend date.

A question about the schedule. Someone mentioned you would get the pre-set schedule at the draft.

Is this true? Before captains start drafting or did they mean a week or so AFTER the draft?

The reason I am asking is that if it is before or right before the drafting starts, there is a benefit of knowing when you play and can adjust your drafting accordingly. So if you thing the reg season IS important and you know that you ended up with 5 out of your 11 reg games on Tuesday nights (3 of which were at the end of the season), you may avoid drafting a player that has night classes etc on Tuesday night throughout the summer. Conversely, if the schedule comes out AFTER the draft and requests, you could end up with a roster with a bunch of attendance issues you did anticipate which would negate the benefit of a preset schedule anyway.

Another juicy nugget to knowing the schedule before the draft ( and thus the reg season pools)

Will you share draft info and help a fellow captain with a good decision who happens to be in your pool?
I guess it depends on your captaining philosophy.

We'll see.

I do remember taking on the role of peace maker but I don't remember spiking a rule book. I try not to touch those things.

Jello discs do not equal spirit

Spirit has nothing to do with the "fun" that takes place off the field.

BUT I do have more fun playing in a game that is spirited vs a screaming match game.

And yet, all things being equal, I have more fun winning than losing.what a complexed issue this whole breeding ultimate thing is!

Cheers,
Clayton
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Seth T
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« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2012, 08:32:05 pm »

You definitely spiked that rule book.  It was, however, very much in jest.
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Clayton1
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« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2012, 09:57:00 am »

Ok I must have then ... Probably the last time I have touched one
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Lindi1
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« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2012, 04:26:58 pm »

Wait a sec, to really make this fair why don't we just guarantee that each pool gets an automatic bid to one of 8 A/B spots and then dole out the other 8 A/B pre-quarter spots based on the strength of each pool during the regular season.  Genius!

-Lindi

**so glad I don't make decisions anymore
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jfbrose1
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« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2012, 06:19:26 am »


I looked around for info on tie-breakers and could not find any.  So, what are tie-breakers for reg season this year?  Earlier posts indicate, perhaps without authority, that point diff will not be used, but how else will we breaking multi-team ties?
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Bulb
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« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2012, 04:07:23 pm »

I looked around for info on tie-breakers and could not find any.  So, what are tie-breakers for reg season this year?  Earlier posts indicate, perhaps without authority, that point diff will not be used, but how else will we breaking multi-team ties?
You may be referring to a post where I said "no one's season will end on point diff."  Point diff will still be used, but under the new format, no team will be ELIMINATED from Black Disc contention on point diff (which was possible under the old format).  They will just get a lower seed in the playoff bracket (which, at worst, will mean one more game needing to be played).

Tie breakers are:

2 team tie:
1) head to head
2) coin flip (only used if head-to-head was tie).

3 or more teams tie:
1) head to head record for teams involved
2) point diff in games of teams involved (including games against teams that may already be out of tie by virtue of head-to-head record)
3) If point diff is tied between just two teams after other tie-breakers are applied, then back to head to head between those two teams.
4) coin toss

Example:  4 teams are tied at 4-2 after reg season.  Team A has 3-0 record against other teams involved in tie, Team B, C, and D have 1-2 records.  Team A gets top spot with best record head-to-head. Point diff then determines the order of the other 3 teams including games played against Team A.  If Team B is plus 2 and C and D are minus 1, Team B gets second spot, then because there are just two teams left in tie-breaker, it goes back to head-to-head in game between C and D.  If that game was a tie, it's a coin flip.  If Team B and Team C were both plus 1 and Team D was minus 2, then Team D would get last spot, and winner of B game against C would get 2nd spot.  If that game was a tie, Team D would still get last spot and Team B versus C would be determined by coin flip.
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